More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

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Nikanon99
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More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by Nikanon99 »

Posting this again in the hopes that someone can help me. I developed some Kentmere 400 shot at 800 in Kodak Xtol again last night. I am using my plastic patterson two reel tank with both reels loaded. I have used this tank/reel/developer combination very recently without this issue appearing at all, the most recent development being Arista EDU 400 DX. As in previous posts, I am getting black specs in the negative scans only at the edge of the film inside the image area, meaning they are areas that are under or not developed and clear on the negative itself. I have absolutely no idea what causes this and there is nothing consistent about when it appears or doesnt appear. See attached images:
Attachments
Kentmere800-009.jpg
Kentmere800-009.jpg (51.06 KiB) Viewed 825 times
Kentmere800-007.jpg
Kentmere800-007.jpg (66.86 KiB) Viewed 825 times
jordicaro
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by jordicaro »

HI,

it looks like a light leak…the camera light seals are OK?
Nikanon99
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by Nikanon99 »

A light leak would be white on the positive or black on the scan indicating a build-up of density, this is exactly the opposite with the prevention of density by some unknown source

unless you are referring to the large white area in the bottom left which is just flare from a reflection on the floor. The area I am pointing to is at the top of the frame
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sanchell
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by sanchell »

Is the space where you load your film in the holders clean and clear of contaminants? This looks like it might be created by a contaminated thumb sliding the film under the film holder rails.
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Steve Anchell
Nikanon99
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by Nikanon99 »

sanchell wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 4:53 pm Is the space where you load your film in the holders clean and clear of contaminants? This looks like it might be created by a contaminated thumb sliding the film under the film holder rails.
Steve,

I scrub the reels after each development to be sure there are no contaminants with a long bristle brush and dish soap, then thoroughly wash to be sure all soap is removed. I also always wear disposable cotton archival gloves when handling the film and loading it.
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sanchell
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by sanchell »

I've run out of ideas unless it is something embedded in the emulsion during manufacture.

Remind me once more, is this only occurring on a particular film emulsion or brand?
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Steve Anchell
Nikanon99
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by Nikanon99 »

sanchell wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 5:44 pm I've run out of ideas unless it is something embedded in the emulsion during manufacture.

Remind me once more, is this only occurring on a particular film emulsion or brand?
Same here, I really don't see anything that could be causing it. Total Mystery.

It has occurred on Agfaphoto APX 400, and on Ilford films HP5 and FP4, and Kentmere 400. It has never occurred on a Kodak film.
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sanchell
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by sanchell »

Harman Technologies owns Ilford and Kentmere. Both films are coated on Harman's machines. Harman also coats many third-party films, such as Agfa, which does not own film-coating machines. While I am unsure who coats Agfa, I would not be surprised to discover it was Harman.

If that is the case, there is a good chance of a defect in one of Harman's film coaters. Switch to Kodak.
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Nikanon99
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by Nikanon99 »

What is crazy to me is that I don't see anyone else reporting this issue or noticing it. I can't imagine that I'm the only one who got a bad batch of each film from Harman, although it would be a nice concise solution. Just having developed another roll of Kentmere 400 shot at 800 developed in Xtol and I am still getting these strange marks. Absolutely no matter what I do they still occur, so I HAVE to think it must be a defect with the film. Changing developers, changing from tap to distilled water, scrubbing the reels, using gloves when loading, agitating with inversion or swirling stick and more, nothing has any effect on this issue.

Two more close up crops attached of the Kentmere 400 with the issue identified. Both are along the top edge of the frame as usual
Attachments
crop K800-004.jpg
crop K800-004.jpg (62.58 KiB) Viewed 505 times
crop K800-001.jpg
crop K800-001.jpg (105.65 KiB) Viewed 505 times
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sanchell
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by sanchell »

My apologies for the delay. I have been incapacitated for health reasons since December.

At this point, I'm out of ideas. My only suggestion is to entirely discontinue Kentmere and Ilford films and switch to Kodak films. Why Kodak? Love 'em or hate 'em, they still have the highest reputation for quality and consistency.

Should the problem recur with Kodak films then it is most definitely you. If it disappears, then you know it is the Harmann coating process.
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Steve Anchell
Nikanon99
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by Nikanon99 »

No problem, I have been rather busy as well. I hope all is well with you Steve, or that it is on the mend.

I am entirely out of ideas as well. I just bought some Ilford Ilfotec DDX to see if maybe it was in some strange way the Kodak Developers were interacting with the film? A crazy idea but worth changing the developer one more time from the HC-110 and Xtol. Well on HP5, I did see the issue but much much less pronounced, however, I just developed some more Kentmere 400 at 800 and it is indeed just about as visible as it has ever been. That being said, I recently developed some more Agfaphoto APX 400, and the issue was VERY prominent as well. So that says to me this issue is SOMETHING in the process. I have changed everything possible in how I develop, is there some potential that it is to do with the fixer or the fixer remover? Potentially "bleaching" off some developed films in a speckled pattern like this? That is my very last thought possible.

I will regardless be moving to other films on which I have not seen this issue, as I cannot risk ruining more films until I can somehow isolate and control the issue, which Ilford has been so kind to help me do. If I learn more, I will post it here.
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sanchell
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by sanchell »

You mention fixer remover. What are you referring to? HCA? Something else?
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p.barden
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by p.barden »

If you experience problems with a variety of films and different developers, then my guess is that it’s either technique (less likely) or your equipment. I’m not a fan of Paterson plastic tanks, because in my experience they develop problems that cannot be resolved by anything but replacement. Perhaps your scrubbing them to clean has introduced a problem. I gave up Paterson tanks forty years ago and the problems I had with 35mm films went away.

If you tried one of the Kodak films and found it did not have the problem, that doesn’t mean that Ilford/Agfaphoto films are defective - it may just mean that Kodak films are more resistant to the problem manifesting itself. If I were you, I’d replace your Paterson reels with new ones to start with and see what happens. I feel pretty confident that the issue is either technique or equipment related.

Question: are you making sure the reels are absolutely bone dry before loading film? Have you checked the condition of the ball bearings? Are they rusting? Would you consider switching to stainless steel reels/tanks? You’ve eliminated most of the other potential issues…

Addendum: I’ve just reviewed your other threads about these problems, and it appears you have had the problem using steel reels, yes? I see you’ve also had issues with Fomapan, and I’ve had a friend at a lab recently tell me that they now recommend a LONG water pre-soak to avoid uneven development issues. Like, five minutes or more. I know, that shouldn’t be necessary, but with Fomapan it may be helpful. I used to have a lot of problems with air bells on Rollei IR 400, but that all stopped when I adopted a 3 minute water pre-soak. I’d try long pre-soaks to see if that helps.

I also note that you frequently “push” your films to get more speed. I suggest you do another test and give a half stop more exposure OVER box speed and develop accordingly and see what you get. I’m thinking these “bargain” films may not be amenable to pushing.
One final thought about Kodak Xtol: after the many various manufacturing defects over the past 7-8 years, I will not buy Kodak branded chemistry anymore. Xtol was inconsistent, and often defective when I last bought it about four years ago. I a skeptical that Xtol is responsible for the marks you’re getting, but neither would I trust it anymore. I make Mytol at home these days, but I have also recently worked with Adox XT-3 and found it excellent.

I also wonder what you are using as "fixer remover"? A hypo clearing agent? And what are you using for fixer, and how do you use it?
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sanchell
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Re: More Mystery Marks at edge of film...

Post by sanchell »

Good response, p.barden. This one has me completely stumped, so your suggestion to try different working methods and tanks is appreciated.
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Steve Anchell
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